Considering the whole 'help with the dishes' thing, they're my dishes, too. If they were ALL hers, maybe that would be considered helping. Those are also MY kids to take care of. I'm not helping out my wife by 'babysitting' our kids. This 'needing to be asked to help' seems more like a product of the patriarchy and culture-of-power crapfest than a primal need within the male soul or whatever.
I completely agree. I actually edited out a whole section about how when I hear men "helping out" with the kids it makes my skin crawl. Same on dating apps, I see men write that they're happy to "help" with making dinner, and it makes me not want to match with them. I think it's okay if people negotiate roles in their relationships (if two people agree and the woman wants to cook/clean/take care of kids and the man makes money) it's fine if they're both consenting. I think the issue is with the default modes they choose and when there's unspoken expectations and lack of acknowledgement. Just riffing here. anywho thanks for reading and engaging :)
What patriarchy? The matriarchy has been in place for ages and i would say a 'culture of power' is not a gender thing, it's a human nature thing so.... awkward, anyway nothing wrong with looking after your family, you're right it's not 'helping out', tbh i wish women would bugger off to slave at the soul crushing corporate coalface instead of wanting to try and do everything (badly), i loved being the homemaker when i had the chance to do it and i was very happy for things to be mine, all the things, mine i say.
This was a fantastic analysis. As a fellow independent woman, I struggle so much with dating because guys complain that I don’t need them. Which is true, I don’t in the traditional sense. I want a partner, I want my equal, but that just confuses them.
Also, you do realize that leftist, society-wide policies (AA, diversity policies, loans, etc, etc) made it so that there are multiple women competing for any man you'd consider "equal," right?
Political lesbianism has been around for a long while. Personally, I believe sexuality is malleable to some extent, and I've come across others who've asserted as much of their own sexuality (e.g., a guy choosing to be gay).
Because you're not running a business, it's a relationship, so having a partner is somewhat redundant. The dudes have a point, and yes i think women dating women is probably the sensible route as other commenters have noted.
I don’t think its fair to group “man-hating” women and feminists together. As a feminist, I want and fight for whats best for women and ways we can make women more confident in their independence. This does not immediately imply that feminists hate all men. I’m sure there are feminists who think like that, but i believe women should value and respect men the same way we want men to respect us. Just because a women is a feminist does not disregard all her desire and availability for dating or spending her life with a man, and if a man doesn’t like the fact that she’s a feminist, i believe that’s his problem.
Feminists do not value and respect men - that’s why they are called feminists. Feminists made sure that three times more taxpayer funds are spent on breast cancer than prostate cancer. Feminists, and their male enablers, created ten offices for women’s health, but ignored men’s health.
If your husband gets prostate cancer, he will learn that your fellow feminists made sure that three times more taxpayer funds are spent on breast cancer than prostate cancer.
Then keep speaking up about it. I'd wager the discrepancy in funding has more to do with advocacy than anyone hating men. Women are open about the challenges of breast cancer, but most men I have known who have had prostate cancer are conversely quiet about it. Erectile dysfunction gets more funding than PCOS, which statistically affects more people. The money is just going to the loudest mouths. Not to the people with the worse problem.
This is the polarized response to men telling women to keep their mouths shut and stay in the kitchen for decades. We need to keep the conversation going if there will ever be balance. So keep speaking up, and doing so with grace. Carrying your words with respect for others goes a long way.
I want a partner, I want my equal, but that just confuses them.”
I think it confuses women as well, because when men say lets do things "50/50” women balk. Also, partners and equals need each other, they don’t just want each other. In most social arrangements, when people partner up, because they need the other persons help. You definitely NEED a partner if you want to produce children.
I think the problem lies in that many women want children, but they don't want to have to raise a grown man as well. Our society did not prepare men to be in the world we are in at all, but we have been teaching women how to do it all for decades.
You're not funny dude. You're hilarious. No but seriously great article.
I really liked the part about which kid should carry the chair, it made me think about times I've behaved similarly, thinking I was being helpful.
From a male perspective I'm not sure how much of this desire to be helpful/useful is from male social conditioning or inherent to being human. I think it might just be that the desire to help manifests differently based on our social conditioning. Like men enjoy helping with (certain) physical tasks because they've been taught it's how they're good at helping or how they're supposed to help. For women I think of how some partners to blue collar men enjoy making lunch for their partner. And for a relatively agender example how tall people enjoy using their height to help others.
Weirdly I also think this can make people not want to help sometimes. Maybe it draws back to your idea of being wanted. I notice sometimes people not wanting to do something helpful because they feel they're only being asked because of a trait they have, not who they are.
Hopefully I'm not just repeating what you already said.
I'm a woman and I also enjoy being asked to lift stuff. It genuinely makes me really sad that people try and get me to play the damsel role and insist I'm insecure if I don't want it. Doing physical stuff is FUN
I mean you aren’t wrong, wanting to help in specific acts of service can be very loving and helpful. I think the issue comes when women want more emotional effort in dating or day to day life.
I read this other article recently that talked about how women do a lot of the emotional labor in a relationship. Remembering important dates, planning dates/activities, remembering the small things, etc. The emotional labor, even the normal day to day physical necessities like cooking and maintaining a shared space, is very important when choosing a partner. And women tend to do a lot of those things themselves already. So why should I really care to do that for a man who doesn’t learn how to live with another human being who isn’t financially dependent on them?
You brought up the example about blue collar husbands having meals made by their lady. Typically I see that when the woman stays at home, and this is her return (whether that be transactional or in a pure loving way). It’s a more “traditional” relationship.
Certain men want to be “useful” but have no desire in developing their relationship skills to modern day. Independent women don’t really need a man with big muscles or a huge wallet when they can do it themselves. Straight men should learn how to have relationships with the women of today.
I think you raise some genuinely interesting points here, especially around the shift from being needed to being wanted and how that might affect how men see themselves. The idea that a lot of men are really responding to the feeling of being chosen rather than the task itself feels pretty accurate.
That said, I think the “outdated usefulness” framing might be a bit too strong. Physical competence, being able to fix things, move things, handle practical problems, hasn’t really gone away. It’s just no longer tied to survival in the same way it used to be. It still matters, just in a different context.
It also seems less like those traits are obsolete and more like the expectations have expanded. Being emotionally present, communicative, and supportive is clearly more important now, but that doesn’t necessarily replace the older forms of usefulness, it adds to them.
So instead of men needing to abandon older roles, it might be more accurate to say they’re being asked to integrate both: practical competence and emotional presence. That’s a higher and more complex bar, which might explain some of the friction you’re describing.
Overall though, I think your core point about the “needed vs wanted” shift is a really valuable lens for understanding a lot of modern dating dynamics.
I love this perspective. I have been exploring the idea of men’s roles shifting in society in a maybe-not-as-generous way myself. I feel like there is another important piece to this that needs exploration: if female dependency was the foundation of relationships previously, and men chose women based on how pleasant they were, how attractive they were, and how useful and supportive they were at home…then what do men value in women now that dependency is no longer the foundation? I think this framing could provide additional context for the current male conundrum. Yes, the expectations for relationships are changing and yes, it’s crucial for men to shift how they perceive themselves so their self-worth becomes inherent vs tied to usefulness. It’s also true that men need to explore what women are to them now that women are not dependent on them for survival. What do men need? I don’t get the impression that most men understand their own needs outside of what they have been told are “acceptable needs” by the same society that told them what being worthy looks like. Needing to feel loved, worthy, accepted, appreciated, wanted…I think we all want that. But I think men need to honestly explore what that looks like in a relationship where BOTH people are empowered, independent people. “What does my partner truly need in order to feel valued and wanted” is a question we should all be asking, regardless of gender. Without the second part, we are still going to live in a world where men’s needs and desires are taking center-stage…and women aren’t going to stick around for lopsided relationships like that anymore.
I value a romantic partner who doesn’t need me as her emotional crutch. If women today now expect (not just hope) men to fulfill their emotional needs, that’s more than I have the capacity to handle. I can barely take care of myself, I don’t have the headspace to try and solve your problems on top of that.
Hi Rob - I can't speak for everyone, but I would venture to guess that most people do not want to be the emotional crutch for their partner. That said, being able to meet one another's emotional needs is a part of being in a healthy relationship. I would be curious to know what "being an emotional crutch" looks like to you? But more importantly, do you know what your emotional needs are? You said you can barely take care of yourself - have you ever explored leaning on a partner for support when you need it? My partner historically has struggled to identify his own needs. Because of that, he has not always been able to care for himself emotionally. His low capacity has meant that he struggles with hearing about my feelings or needs - even when they are within a healthy range of expectation within a partnership (e.g. empathetic listening, providing support or feedback, physical comforting, etc.). Now that he has started to vocalize his own needs and feelings, and has been allowing me to support HIM, he has a lot more capacity to show up for me in the same ways. We don't RELY on each other, but we know we can count on each other to give support when it's truly needed. And that's the best part of being in a relationship (in my opinion!)
“It seems like we need to remind men that their worth doesn’t come solely from being useful. I think this quiet change from need to want has been destabilizing for men who tie their self-worth to utility, and has resulted in a large misalignment in modern dating.” - my fav paragraph
I 100% agree with you on everything you said. Very well written & I hope more men and women read this piece FULLY.
As a man this resonates a lot. Men receive very little validation outside of accomplishing tasks. Men rarely give or receive compliments that validate who we are rather than what we do. Are we surprised why men are so competitive? Most men never get real affirmation or validation from their riends and are seeking a romantic partner to validate their existence, desirability, and worth....which is not a good set-up for a healthy relationship. I'm grateful to be a part of a group of male friends who uplift each other, affirm each other, give each other compliments, and tell each other we're beautiful and that we love each other <3. I think we could use more of that. We ought not place all the burden on women to make us feel valid. The hard part is that being vulnerable, emotional, and showing affection for your homies doesn't really square with patriarchal expectations of masculinity. Therein lies the work.
Totally agree, however I still would really hope for physical appearance compliments from women. But like Emily said, good on u for finding a good friend group seriously
This is awesome, such a thoughtful analysis. Seriously, props for opening discussions like these. This made me think about how often we underestimate the cumulative force of these micro interactions (social media comments we spend less time thinking about than we do writing). A single comment can feel insignificant, but repeated at scale they start to quietly shape expectations and identities. Which is a really powerful idea - that we're all participating in that shaping of society and expectations, whether or not we're aware of it.
Hi Olivia, great work. I feel like you're arriving close to a key truth here...ime most men aren’t struggling to be “wanted"...they’re struggling with *conditionality* and **contempt risk**.
Let me explain. Ok, being wanted can feel incredible…but in modern dating it can also feel like:
-“You’re wanted as long as you perform correctly.”
-“If you misstep, you’re not corrected--you’re quietly replaced.”
-“If you talk about your inner world wrong, you’re ‘unsafe’ or ‘fragile’ or ‘too much.’”
I think majority of men can relate to this. The system wants more hyper-atomization, division, and walking on eggshells.. It’s sad…I’ve seen a lot of community + relationships neutered and destroyed from a lack of empathy and compassion. Huge generalizations. Idk how many can't see the parallels of the 1950's to now...conformist repressive and now mostly inverted in sophisticated ways. NUANCE, people. HUMANS GONNA HUMAN
Yeah I think thats remnants of patriarchy filling in the gaps of the needed vs wanted shifts. Now what is wanted varies and changes from person to person. If a dude is worried he is only wanted if hes performing, then he is still stuck in the patriarchal mindset of performing masculinity. The thing is most women dont want that.
What is needed is more of a peoplearcy mid-way between a patriarchy and a matriarchy where humans can come together. It won't happen overnight. It's time to begin.
Adult relationships are inherently conditional, and there’s always the possibility for contempt or dissatisfaction (as much as any other dynamic/emotion, like joy or contentment.) All genders of people struggle with the risk that comes with romantic relationships being conditional, but if we want to be in romantic relationships, it’s something we need to build tolerance around.
the thing I note here that's interesting is that men learning to take on less MANLY roles are afraid of making the same mistakes that traditionally men would chastise and judge women for (correct performance, mistress, threats of replacement, don't be emotional or open up too much)
Rob, does your wife ‘help out’ with the car/house/garden maintenance? The tasks and chores in these discussions always seem to revolve around the chores that had been traditionally female. I rarely see male authors writing to complain that their partner never changes the engine oil or paints the fence. The whole discussion is always from the female perspective.
In the very traditional household I was in growing up, yes, my mom did "help out" with those things. If my dad wasn't there to shovel snow for whatever reason, the snow still got shoveled. But if my mom wasn't there to cook dinner for whatever reason, it was "fend for yourself" night.
At least in in my anecdotal opinion, men don't write about women not "helping" with male-coded tasks because.... they get done regardless.
Also, the tasks tend to be occasional, rather than constant. How often are you painting your fence? You change your oil, what, a couple times a year? That's not as grating as a daily task that is being shoveled to one person.
Wow. Olivia, you lost me at your first premise. 'Men aren't needed anymore...' followed by your example of needing a man to lift heavy weights for you. Most of the remaining essay is therefore moot, based on a fallacy. Of course women need men. Men need women, too. During the covid shutdowns it became glaringly apparent how 'Essential Workers' keep all of us alive. They keep our water clean and maintain the energy infrastructure to keep our houses, offices, and stores lit and climate controlled. They fight fires and respond in emergencies, risking their lives to protect and defend us. They produce our food, construct and repair the roads, drive the trucks and captain the ships. They mine minerals, log forests and work in chemical plants. Most of these essential workers are MEN. 2019 statistics from the Economic Policy Institute list essential services by gender/sex: Emergency Services - 81% men. Transportation, warehouse and delivery - 74% men. Energy sector - 96% men. Water and wastewater management - 91% men. Chemical sector - 82% men. Critical manufacturing - 81% men. Food and agriculture - 54% men. (I think men do most of the food production, where women are engaged in the commerce end of food) Women did the bulk of healthcare. (76%). Olivia, you are NOT independent - your very survival is dependent on a massive system, mostly run by men. That doesn't make you weak - that makes you human. What is so wrong with needing each other? We women need men (and men need women) in the most primal, evolutionary sense. Homo sapiens sapiens, as a species, has over 200,000 years of evolution that supports this. We evolved in kin-related groups that were dependent on each other in the most essential ways. Men create culture, protecting and defending life. Women maintain that culture, and nurture the life they bring into the world. We still are those people. Nobody will ever be your 'equal' (another fallacy), but there can be egalitarianism and a healthy inter-dependency in our modern relationships. The men I know would be grateful if they were just accepted as men instead of trying to contort into an honorary woman.
This talking point is always exhausting because it intentionally moves the goalposts in how we’re framing “need.” On a zoomed-out level, everyone needs everyone, because we each rely (however directly or indirectly) on the contributions of one another in our intricately interconnected world. On an interpersonal level and specifically a romantic/sexual relational level, women on the whole do not need men or vice versa because obviously there are many of us living and thriving just fine without sexual or romantic partnership with them.
With the gym example, the author happened to get help from a man, and could have also gotten help from a woman like my wife, who clears heavy weights from squat racks whenever someone asks her. We just need to be clear about what exactly we mean when we’re talking about need, and I think this essay does a lovely job of that.
But women never acknowledge that kind of men's struggles. Never. Not once, I've ever read a post, article, book by a woman (least by a feminist) simply THANKING men for doing these hard and dangerous works. But traditional and social media are full a lot of complaints, men should do thit, should'nt do that, men are bad, man are dangerous... Then, finally someone reminds you of how many men work and suffer and die in these dangerous jobs and activities (they do for everyone and women in particular) and the answer is "it's exhausting", "that's not the point", "it's another level". Yes, I understand it's exhausting, because it exposes the hypochrisy, and the lack of any gratitude.
As if men had ever truly acknowledged women's suffering throughout history. If anything, for centuries they have been the very reason much of that suffering existed.
If men's struggles deserve greater recognition—and many certainly do—then the people who should lead that conversation are men themselves.
Victimhood is not a movement. Stand up, organize, support one another, challenge harmful norms, and build the change you want to see—the same way women have been doing for generations.
Haha it’s funny you say that because I just published an article talking about how fathers are largely not respected as parents in heterosexual family structures. But unfortunately, your comment doesn’t address what I said or the original article. There are plenty of conversations to be had about men’s struggles, and that doesn’t have any bearing on whether or not women need men and how we’re defining the word “need.” Of course, men struggle in and contribute to the world like everyone else.
I love this but I still find this talking point exhausting! Sure, people can feel wanted but we don't "need" them. Saying we need this person means we can't be happy nor live our life without them, I can't do the things I want to do without them, I need them to live and breathe which isn't true. It's very important to know the difference between a want and a need. Also, every women is different but a there are women that would do these jobs if men didn't act the way they do in this field. A lot of women and me speak on these issues, when women enter these fields and you hear the things they go through verbally, mentally and physically in a bad way...women now leave it to me because there was never a safe space to begin with.
Such a good point that one big reason why there aren’t more women in those fields is because the ones who are in those fields get treated like absolute shit by men on a daily basis. My good friend is a really skilled foreman in construction, and she gets treated terribly for being a woman.
Exactly, this is the point. In relationships, women can be however equal they want, no problem, it’s just about communication. However, when we look at this from the distance, the absolute majority of physical labour, works, and heavy and hard tasks and problems are still relaying on men. It’s just like that.
Great article. I really enjoyed reading it and thinking through the perspectives you brought along the way.
I do think many men have a deep desire to feel needed. Whether that is mostly socialized, innate, or some combination of both, I’m not entirely sure. I think there is another question worth exploring: are men only struggling to understand how to provide in a world where resources and protection are no longer their monopoly, or are women also struggling to identify what makes a good man when those traditional forms of provision are no longer as necessary?
Your article points to emotional support and household responsibility, and I agree that men should absolutely contribute around the house and support their significant others emotionally. Which all available data suggest they have immensely picked up on these fronts compared to prior decades, but much of the current dialogue around how men should adapt seems to imply that men should become more like women. Without the traditional roles of provider and protector inside a relationship, it can sometimes sound as though what women want from men is simply a taller, muscular, hairy version of another woman.
That framing feels incomplete to me. As the quote often attributed to Einstein goes, “If you judge a fish by its ability to climb a tree, it will live its whole life believing it is stupid.” If we measure men primarily by how closely they resemble women, they will almost always appear deficient. Surely men have historically brought more to relationships than money and protection, just as women have brought more than sex and housework.
That also connects to a broader cultural pattern. When men become successful enough to be materially independent, many still seem to look for a woman with whom to share that success. But when women become successful enough to be materially independent, the language often shifts toward not needing a man at all. I do not think that means women are wrong to value independence, but it may reveal something important: perhaps many women understand male value primarily through provision, and when provision becomes unnecessary, they are left without a clear framework for recognizing the other things men bring.
That seems unfair to both sexes. Men have rarely said, “I have a maid and supportive friends, therefore I do not need women.” Most men still understand that women bring companionship, intimacy, warmth, perspective, family, emotional meaning, and a different kind of presence that cannot be reduced to a task. Men should be granted the same complexity. If it would feel degrading to reduce women to sex, childcare, or domestic work, then it should also feel degrading to reduce men to money, protection, or utility.
I think the more interesting question is not whether men can become more like women, but what unique benefits men naturally bring when they are at their best. Those contributions may need to be redefined for the modern world, but I do not think they should be dismissed simply because older forms of male utility are less central than they once were.
You seem to be pretty attached to gender essentialism so I’m not going to get into most of what you said, but it’s interesting that you seem to think that only men have a need to feel needed. With some individual exceptions, that’s a pretty universal human trait.
Regarding your second-to-last paragraph, it’s not women’s responsibility to want or need men (or vice versa.) It’s up to each individual to determine what their wants and needs are, and to determine if they’re being met/how they want them to be met, and how they want to go about that. If a straight man decides he’s content without pursuing a relationship, he’s not neglecting some obligation to want or need a woman in his life any more than a straight woman is if she decides her needs are met without romantic partnership with a man.
Feminism taught that a woman can do anything a man can, and over the last century men famously responded by gradually opening up things previously restricted by law or convention. Understandably, women took this opportunity to share the previously male-coded privileges they want, and likewise to demand equal male share of the previously female-coded problems they don’t. What of the male-coded problems women don’t want to share, or the female-coded privileges women like just as they are? In my experience, they’re mostly intact.
The overall effect has been that women come to see men as if they’re women, just less effective and less hard-working by a woman’s metrics. Women seem to have heaps of empathy for other women, but little ability to imagine how a man thinks. As a man, fed messages of centering women my whole life, I’ve sometimes seen exactly how a woman thinks - and it’s terrifying. Things I find difficult are trivially easy, things I find easy are very hard (or even unknown), our priorities are ordered differently, we solve problems very differently.
On paper, men and women have no need for each other unless one wants a child, and plenty say as much. The reality is different: at least 30% of US adults have used a dating app, and the Internet is crammed with complaints from both sexes about the difficulty finding a long-term romantic partner. For all the change, Jane Austen seems as relatable as ever.
Either women will continue to not see that men are different rather than inferior and both sexes will get more frustrated and further apart, with no obvious limit. Or women will begin to notice that men are not merely low-performing women, and how they operate is valuable.
You've articulated better what has been on my mind for quite sometime. I too have felt that women have wanted a man to be more traditionally "feminine", so myself and other men I know try and hopelessly meet that expectation that deep down we can never truly meet. Mostly because it doesn't feel entirely true to ourselves.
As you pointed out, I don't think women know what to do with this change either. Any woman I've tried to talk to this about in my life hasn't really been able to articulate what they'd want in a partner that wasn't traditional masculine or feminine gender roles in a hetero relationship.
I don't believe a heterosexual relationship should be different to a homosexual one.
If I'm with a man (and I am…), I don't have different expectations than I would if he were a lesbian/bisexual woman.
Loyalty, honesty, dignity, respect, support through all of life’s stages. A fair share of household labour. If we have kids, they're yours as much as mine; your time and energy should be as devoted to them as mine is. If you cannot or will not devote that time and energy, the child should remain theoretical.
Worrying about masculinity or femininity is just… so very exhausting and ultimately pointless because no-one even agrees what those words mean or who they should be applied to or when they should be applied.
Be a good partner and human, regardless of whether you like to wear dresses or not.
As women we have spent innumerable hours figuring out what it is a man wants from us, which is different from what the last wanted(needed) and even more different still from what the next one wants. Let us challenge men to figure out it the way we always have. Meet a person, they’re going to need things unique to them, figure out what those things are. When all else fails, ask.
Fundamentally, what a woman wants is to be chosen by a man she finds useful.
When we were dragging a Sabre-toothed tiger back to camp every night, we both knew what you found useful. It’s got more complicated every year since then.
every woman you’ve ever been in a “relationship” has told you exactly what she wants. women are very open about what we want. it’s already hard enough to find a “good man” we aren’t leaving much to chance. but males think they know better always.
Women are - famously! - not at all straightforward about explaining what they want, and that situation has nothing to do with patriarchy.
Of course all humans want to experience love from others, but quite understandably that’s not enough: it has to be a “good man”, as you say. My comment boiled down what a woman means by “good man”.
no that is not what women want fundamentally that is what the patriarchy has indoctrinated women into believing. all humans fundamentally want to experience love from others, the beauty of the earth and community, of a shared cause and a higher purpose.
seems like you also are indoctrinated. i hope you have a good life with your hand. may wanna work on the left too so you don’t get too tired. boy bye! 👋
Considering the whole 'help with the dishes' thing, they're my dishes, too. If they were ALL hers, maybe that would be considered helping. Those are also MY kids to take care of. I'm not helping out my wife by 'babysitting' our kids. This 'needing to be asked to help' seems more like a product of the patriarchy and culture-of-power crapfest than a primal need within the male soul or whatever.
I completely agree. I actually edited out a whole section about how when I hear men "helping out" with the kids it makes my skin crawl. Same on dating apps, I see men write that they're happy to "help" with making dinner, and it makes me not want to match with them. I think it's okay if people negotiate roles in their relationships (if two people agree and the woman wants to cook/clean/take care of kids and the man makes money) it's fine if they're both consenting. I think the issue is with the default modes they choose and when there's unspoken expectations and lack of acknowledgement. Just riffing here. anywho thanks for reading and engaging :)
informed* consent
The only true consent
What patriarchy? The matriarchy has been in place for ages and i would say a 'culture of power' is not a gender thing, it's a human nature thing so.... awkward, anyway nothing wrong with looking after your family, you're right it's not 'helping out', tbh i wish women would bugger off to slave at the soul crushing corporate coalface instead of wanting to try and do everything (badly), i loved being the homemaker when i had the chance to do it and i was very happy for things to be mine, all the things, mine i say.
This was a fantastic analysis. As a fellow independent woman, I struggle so much with dating because guys complain that I don’t need them. Which is true, I don’t in the traditional sense. I want a partner, I want my equal, but that just confuses them.
"I want my equal"
Then date a woman lol.
Also, you do realize that leftist, society-wide policies (AA, diversity policies, loans, etc, etc) made it so that there are multiple women competing for any man you'd consider "equal," right?
And if she's not attracted to women? I keep seeing the "just date a woman lol" take as though that's a real solution.
Political lesbianism has been around for a long while. Personally, I believe sexuality is malleable to some extent, and I've come across others who've asserted as much of their own sexuality (e.g., a guy choosing to be gay).
Because you're not running a business, it's a relationship, so having a partner is somewhat redundant. The dudes have a point, and yes i think women dating women is probably the sensible route as other commenters have noted.
No man wants man-hating feminists. Men want the women the value and respect men., Feminists will grow old alone.
I don’t think its fair to group “man-hating” women and feminists together. As a feminist, I want and fight for whats best for women and ways we can make women more confident in their independence. This does not immediately imply that feminists hate all men. I’m sure there are feminists who think like that, but i believe women should value and respect men the same way we want men to respect us. Just because a women is a feminist does not disregard all her desire and availability for dating or spending her life with a man, and if a man doesn’t like the fact that she’s a feminist, i believe that’s his problem.
Feminists do not value and respect men - that’s why they are called feminists. Feminists made sure that three times more taxpayer funds are spent on breast cancer than prostate cancer. Feminists, and their male enablers, created ten offices for women’s health, but ignored men’s health.
Most medical studies have been focused on men, and then the data is applied to women as well.
I'm openly a feminist. I'm happily married. I do all the wife things. Not everything is black and white. There are extremists in every group.
If your husband gets prostate cancer, he will learn that your fellow feminists made sure that three times more taxpayer funds are spent on breast cancer than prostate cancer.
Then keep speaking up about it. I'd wager the discrepancy in funding has more to do with advocacy than anyone hating men. Women are open about the challenges of breast cancer, but most men I have known who have had prostate cancer are conversely quiet about it. Erectile dysfunction gets more funding than PCOS, which statistically affects more people. The money is just going to the loudest mouths. Not to the people with the worse problem.
When men speak up, they are told to go to hell. That is system-wide hate for men.
This is the polarized response to men telling women to keep their mouths shut and stay in the kitchen for decades. We need to keep the conversation going if there will ever be balance. So keep speaking up, and doing so with grace. Carrying your words with respect for others goes a long way.
I want a partner, I want my equal, but that just confuses them.”
I think it confuses women as well, because when men say lets do things "50/50” women balk. Also, partners and equals need each other, they don’t just want each other. In most social arrangements, when people partner up, because they need the other persons help. You definitely NEED a partner if you want to produce children.
I think the problem lies in that many women want children, but they don't want to have to raise a grown man as well. Our society did not prepare men to be in the world we are in at all, but we have been teaching women how to do it all for decades.
You're not funny dude. You're hilarious. No but seriously great article.
I really liked the part about which kid should carry the chair, it made me think about times I've behaved similarly, thinking I was being helpful.
From a male perspective I'm not sure how much of this desire to be helpful/useful is from male social conditioning or inherent to being human. I think it might just be that the desire to help manifests differently based on our social conditioning. Like men enjoy helping with (certain) physical tasks because they've been taught it's how they're good at helping or how they're supposed to help. For women I think of how some partners to blue collar men enjoy making lunch for their partner. And for a relatively agender example how tall people enjoy using their height to help others.
Weirdly I also think this can make people not want to help sometimes. Maybe it draws back to your idea of being wanted. I notice sometimes people not wanting to do something helpful because they feel they're only being asked because of a trait they have, not who they are.
Hopefully I'm not just repeating what you already said.
I'm a woman and I also enjoy being asked to lift stuff. It genuinely makes me really sad that people try and get me to play the damsel role and insist I'm insecure if I don't want it. Doing physical stuff is FUN
I offered two male workers to help and they were confused :) it wasn't heavy stuff so it would have been no issue.
I mean you aren’t wrong, wanting to help in specific acts of service can be very loving and helpful. I think the issue comes when women want more emotional effort in dating or day to day life.
I read this other article recently that talked about how women do a lot of the emotional labor in a relationship. Remembering important dates, planning dates/activities, remembering the small things, etc. The emotional labor, even the normal day to day physical necessities like cooking and maintaining a shared space, is very important when choosing a partner. And women tend to do a lot of those things themselves already. So why should I really care to do that for a man who doesn’t learn how to live with another human being who isn’t financially dependent on them?
You brought up the example about blue collar husbands having meals made by their lady. Typically I see that when the woman stays at home, and this is her return (whether that be transactional or in a pure loving way). It’s a more “traditional” relationship.
Certain men want to be “useful” but have no desire in developing their relationship skills to modern day. Independent women don’t really need a man with big muscles or a huge wallet when they can do it themselves. Straight men should learn how to have relationships with the women of today.
I think you raise some genuinely interesting points here, especially around the shift from being needed to being wanted and how that might affect how men see themselves. The idea that a lot of men are really responding to the feeling of being chosen rather than the task itself feels pretty accurate.
That said, I think the “outdated usefulness” framing might be a bit too strong. Physical competence, being able to fix things, move things, handle practical problems, hasn’t really gone away. It’s just no longer tied to survival in the same way it used to be. It still matters, just in a different context.
It also seems less like those traits are obsolete and more like the expectations have expanded. Being emotionally present, communicative, and supportive is clearly more important now, but that doesn’t necessarily replace the older forms of usefulness, it adds to them.
So instead of men needing to abandon older roles, it might be more accurate to say they’re being asked to integrate both: practical competence and emotional presence. That’s a higher and more complex bar, which might explain some of the friction you’re describing.
Overall though, I think your core point about the “needed vs wanted” shift is a really valuable lens for understanding a lot of modern dating dynamics.
Great comment!
I love this perspective. I have been exploring the idea of men’s roles shifting in society in a maybe-not-as-generous way myself. I feel like there is another important piece to this that needs exploration: if female dependency was the foundation of relationships previously, and men chose women based on how pleasant they were, how attractive they were, and how useful and supportive they were at home…then what do men value in women now that dependency is no longer the foundation? I think this framing could provide additional context for the current male conundrum. Yes, the expectations for relationships are changing and yes, it’s crucial for men to shift how they perceive themselves so their self-worth becomes inherent vs tied to usefulness. It’s also true that men need to explore what women are to them now that women are not dependent on them for survival. What do men need? I don’t get the impression that most men understand their own needs outside of what they have been told are “acceptable needs” by the same society that told them what being worthy looks like. Needing to feel loved, worthy, accepted, appreciated, wanted…I think we all want that. But I think men need to honestly explore what that looks like in a relationship where BOTH people are empowered, independent people. “What does my partner truly need in order to feel valued and wanted” is a question we should all be asking, regardless of gender. Without the second part, we are still going to live in a world where men’s needs and desires are taking center-stage…and women aren’t going to stick around for lopsided relationships like that anymore.
I value a romantic partner who doesn’t need me as her emotional crutch. If women today now expect (not just hope) men to fulfill their emotional needs, that’s more than I have the capacity to handle. I can barely take care of myself, I don’t have the headspace to try and solve your problems on top of that.
Hi Rob - I can't speak for everyone, but I would venture to guess that most people do not want to be the emotional crutch for their partner. That said, being able to meet one another's emotional needs is a part of being in a healthy relationship. I would be curious to know what "being an emotional crutch" looks like to you? But more importantly, do you know what your emotional needs are? You said you can barely take care of yourself - have you ever explored leaning on a partner for support when you need it? My partner historically has struggled to identify his own needs. Because of that, he has not always been able to care for himself emotionally. His low capacity has meant that he struggles with hearing about my feelings or needs - even when they are within a healthy range of expectation within a partnership (e.g. empathetic listening, providing support or feedback, physical comforting, etc.). Now that he has started to vocalize his own needs and feelings, and has been allowing me to support HIM, he has a lot more capacity to show up for me in the same ways. We don't RELY on each other, but we know we can count on each other to give support when it's truly needed. And that's the best part of being in a relationship (in my opinion!)
“It seems like we need to remind men that their worth doesn’t come solely from being useful. I think this quiet change from need to want has been destabilizing for men who tie their self-worth to utility, and has resulted in a large misalignment in modern dating.” - my fav paragraph
I 100% agree with you on everything you said. Very well written & I hope more men and women read this piece FULLY.
As a man this resonates a lot. Men receive very little validation outside of accomplishing tasks. Men rarely give or receive compliments that validate who we are rather than what we do. Are we surprised why men are so competitive? Most men never get real affirmation or validation from their riends and are seeking a romantic partner to validate their existence, desirability, and worth....which is not a good set-up for a healthy relationship. I'm grateful to be a part of a group of male friends who uplift each other, affirm each other, give each other compliments, and tell each other we're beautiful and that we love each other <3. I think we could use more of that. We ought not place all the burden on women to make us feel valid. The hard part is that being vulnerable, emotional, and showing affection for your homies doesn't really square with patriarchal expectations of masculinity. Therein lies the work.
exactly. nailed it. props to you for finding a community of men who do that!!
Totally agree, however I still would really hope for physical appearance compliments from women. But like Emily said, good on u for finding a good friend group seriously
This is awesome, such a thoughtful analysis. Seriously, props for opening discussions like these. This made me think about how often we underestimate the cumulative force of these micro interactions (social media comments we spend less time thinking about than we do writing). A single comment can feel insignificant, but repeated at scale they start to quietly shape expectations and identities. Which is a really powerful idea - that we're all participating in that shaping of society and expectations, whether or not we're aware of it.
Thank you, Susannah! So nice to see you here. 💖
Hi Olivia, great work. I feel like you're arriving close to a key truth here...ime most men aren’t struggling to be “wanted"...they’re struggling with *conditionality* and **contempt risk**.
Let me explain. Ok, being wanted can feel incredible…but in modern dating it can also feel like:
-“You’re wanted as long as you perform correctly.”
-“If you misstep, you’re not corrected--you’re quietly replaced.”
-“If you talk about your inner world wrong, you’re ‘unsafe’ or ‘fragile’ or ‘too much.’”
I think majority of men can relate to this. The system wants more hyper-atomization, division, and walking on eggshells.. It’s sad…I’ve seen a lot of community + relationships neutered and destroyed from a lack of empathy and compassion. Huge generalizations. Idk how many can't see the parallels of the 1950's to now...conformist repressive and now mostly inverted in sophisticated ways. NUANCE, people. HUMANS GONNA HUMAN
Yeah I think thats remnants of patriarchy filling in the gaps of the needed vs wanted shifts. Now what is wanted varies and changes from person to person. If a dude is worried he is only wanted if hes performing, then he is still stuck in the patriarchal mindset of performing masculinity. The thing is most women dont want that.
What is needed is more of a peoplearcy mid-way between a patriarchy and a matriarchy where humans can come together. It won't happen overnight. It's time to begin.
Adult relationships are inherently conditional, and there’s always the possibility for contempt or dissatisfaction (as much as any other dynamic/emotion, like joy or contentment.) All genders of people struggle with the risk that comes with romantic relationships being conditional, but if we want to be in romantic relationships, it’s something we need to build tolerance around.
the thing I note here that's interesting is that men learning to take on less MANLY roles are afraid of making the same mistakes that traditionally men would chastise and judge women for (correct performance, mistress, threats of replacement, don't be emotional or open up too much)
Walking on eggshells has been the traditional domain of those who navigate relationships with narcissists.
Rob, does your wife ‘help out’ with the car/house/garden maintenance? The tasks and chores in these discussions always seem to revolve around the chores that had been traditionally female. I rarely see male authors writing to complain that their partner never changes the engine oil or paints the fence. The whole discussion is always from the female perspective.
In the very traditional household I was in growing up, yes, my mom did "help out" with those things. If my dad wasn't there to shovel snow for whatever reason, the snow still got shoveled. But if my mom wasn't there to cook dinner for whatever reason, it was "fend for yourself" night.
At least in in my anecdotal opinion, men don't write about women not "helping" with male-coded tasks because.... they get done regardless.
Also, the tasks tend to be occasional, rather than constant. How often are you painting your fence? You change your oil, what, a couple times a year? That's not as grating as a daily task that is being shoveled to one person.
Wow. Olivia, you lost me at your first premise. 'Men aren't needed anymore...' followed by your example of needing a man to lift heavy weights for you. Most of the remaining essay is therefore moot, based on a fallacy. Of course women need men. Men need women, too. During the covid shutdowns it became glaringly apparent how 'Essential Workers' keep all of us alive. They keep our water clean and maintain the energy infrastructure to keep our houses, offices, and stores lit and climate controlled. They fight fires and respond in emergencies, risking their lives to protect and defend us. They produce our food, construct and repair the roads, drive the trucks and captain the ships. They mine minerals, log forests and work in chemical plants. Most of these essential workers are MEN. 2019 statistics from the Economic Policy Institute list essential services by gender/sex: Emergency Services - 81% men. Transportation, warehouse and delivery - 74% men. Energy sector - 96% men. Water and wastewater management - 91% men. Chemical sector - 82% men. Critical manufacturing - 81% men. Food and agriculture - 54% men. (I think men do most of the food production, where women are engaged in the commerce end of food) Women did the bulk of healthcare. (76%). Olivia, you are NOT independent - your very survival is dependent on a massive system, mostly run by men. That doesn't make you weak - that makes you human. What is so wrong with needing each other? We women need men (and men need women) in the most primal, evolutionary sense. Homo sapiens sapiens, as a species, has over 200,000 years of evolution that supports this. We evolved in kin-related groups that were dependent on each other in the most essential ways. Men create culture, protecting and defending life. Women maintain that culture, and nurture the life they bring into the world. We still are those people. Nobody will ever be your 'equal' (another fallacy), but there can be egalitarianism and a healthy inter-dependency in our modern relationships. The men I know would be grateful if they were just accepted as men instead of trying to contort into an honorary woman.
This talking point is always exhausting because it intentionally moves the goalposts in how we’re framing “need.” On a zoomed-out level, everyone needs everyone, because we each rely (however directly or indirectly) on the contributions of one another in our intricately interconnected world. On an interpersonal level and specifically a romantic/sexual relational level, women on the whole do not need men or vice versa because obviously there are many of us living and thriving just fine without sexual or romantic partnership with them.
With the gym example, the author happened to get help from a man, and could have also gotten help from a woman like my wife, who clears heavy weights from squat racks whenever someone asks her. We just need to be clear about what exactly we mean when we’re talking about need, and I think this essay does a lovely job of that.
But women never acknowledge that kind of men's struggles. Never. Not once, I've ever read a post, article, book by a woman (least by a feminist) simply THANKING men for doing these hard and dangerous works. But traditional and social media are full a lot of complaints, men should do thit, should'nt do that, men are bad, man are dangerous... Then, finally someone reminds you of how many men work and suffer and die in these dangerous jobs and activities (they do for everyone and women in particular) and the answer is "it's exhausting", "that's not the point", "it's another level". Yes, I understand it's exhausting, because it exposes the hypochrisy, and the lack of any gratitude.
As if men had ever truly acknowledged women's suffering throughout history. If anything, for centuries they have been the very reason much of that suffering existed.
If men's struggles deserve greater recognition—and many certainly do—then the people who should lead that conversation are men themselves.
Victimhood is not a movement. Stand up, organize, support one another, challenge harmful norms, and build the change you want to see—the same way women have been doing for generations.
Haha it’s funny you say that because I just published an article talking about how fathers are largely not respected as parents in heterosexual family structures. But unfortunately, your comment doesn’t address what I said or the original article. There are plenty of conversations to be had about men’s struggles, and that doesn’t have any bearing on whether or not women need men and how we’re defining the word “need.” Of course, men struggle in and contribute to the world like everyone else.
I love this but I still find this talking point exhausting! Sure, people can feel wanted but we don't "need" them. Saying we need this person means we can't be happy nor live our life without them, I can't do the things I want to do without them, I need them to live and breathe which isn't true. It's very important to know the difference between a want and a need. Also, every women is different but a there are women that would do these jobs if men didn't act the way they do in this field. A lot of women and me speak on these issues, when women enter these fields and you hear the things they go through verbally, mentally and physically in a bad way...women now leave it to me because there was never a safe space to begin with.
Such a good point that one big reason why there aren’t more women in those fields is because the ones who are in those fields get treated like absolute shit by men on a daily basis. My good friend is a really skilled foreman in construction, and she gets treated terribly for being a woman.
Exactly, this is the point. In relationships, women can be however equal they want, no problem, it’s just about communication. However, when we look at this from the distance, the absolute majority of physical labour, works, and heavy and hard tasks and problems are still relaying on men. It’s just like that.
Great article. I really enjoyed reading it and thinking through the perspectives you brought along the way.
I do think many men have a deep desire to feel needed. Whether that is mostly socialized, innate, or some combination of both, I’m not entirely sure. I think there is another question worth exploring: are men only struggling to understand how to provide in a world where resources and protection are no longer their monopoly, or are women also struggling to identify what makes a good man when those traditional forms of provision are no longer as necessary?
Your article points to emotional support and household responsibility, and I agree that men should absolutely contribute around the house and support their significant others emotionally. Which all available data suggest they have immensely picked up on these fronts compared to prior decades, but much of the current dialogue around how men should adapt seems to imply that men should become more like women. Without the traditional roles of provider and protector inside a relationship, it can sometimes sound as though what women want from men is simply a taller, muscular, hairy version of another woman.
That framing feels incomplete to me. As the quote often attributed to Einstein goes, “If you judge a fish by its ability to climb a tree, it will live its whole life believing it is stupid.” If we measure men primarily by how closely they resemble women, they will almost always appear deficient. Surely men have historically brought more to relationships than money and protection, just as women have brought more than sex and housework.
That also connects to a broader cultural pattern. When men become successful enough to be materially independent, many still seem to look for a woman with whom to share that success. But when women become successful enough to be materially independent, the language often shifts toward not needing a man at all. I do not think that means women are wrong to value independence, but it may reveal something important: perhaps many women understand male value primarily through provision, and when provision becomes unnecessary, they are left without a clear framework for recognizing the other things men bring.
That seems unfair to both sexes. Men have rarely said, “I have a maid and supportive friends, therefore I do not need women.” Most men still understand that women bring companionship, intimacy, warmth, perspective, family, emotional meaning, and a different kind of presence that cannot be reduced to a task. Men should be granted the same complexity. If it would feel degrading to reduce women to sex, childcare, or domestic work, then it should also feel degrading to reduce men to money, protection, or utility.
I think the more interesting question is not whether men can become more like women, but what unique benefits men naturally bring when they are at their best. Those contributions may need to be redefined for the modern world, but I do not think they should be dismissed simply because older forms of male utility are less central than they once were.
You seem to be pretty attached to gender essentialism so I’m not going to get into most of what you said, but it’s interesting that you seem to think that only men have a need to feel needed. With some individual exceptions, that’s a pretty universal human trait.
Regarding your second-to-last paragraph, it’s not women’s responsibility to want or need men (or vice versa.) It’s up to each individual to determine what their wants and needs are, and to determine if they’re being met/how they want them to be met, and how they want to go about that. If a straight man decides he’s content without pursuing a relationship, he’s not neglecting some obligation to want or need a woman in his life any more than a straight woman is if she decides her needs are met without romantic partnership with a man.
Feminism taught that a woman can do anything a man can, and over the last century men famously responded by gradually opening up things previously restricted by law or convention. Understandably, women took this opportunity to share the previously male-coded privileges they want, and likewise to demand equal male share of the previously female-coded problems they don’t. What of the male-coded problems women don’t want to share, or the female-coded privileges women like just as they are? In my experience, they’re mostly intact.
The overall effect has been that women come to see men as if they’re women, just less effective and less hard-working by a woman’s metrics. Women seem to have heaps of empathy for other women, but little ability to imagine how a man thinks. As a man, fed messages of centering women my whole life, I’ve sometimes seen exactly how a woman thinks - and it’s terrifying. Things I find difficult are trivially easy, things I find easy are very hard (or even unknown), our priorities are ordered differently, we solve problems very differently.
On paper, men and women have no need for each other unless one wants a child, and plenty say as much. The reality is different: at least 30% of US adults have used a dating app, and the Internet is crammed with complaints from both sexes about the difficulty finding a long-term romantic partner. For all the change, Jane Austen seems as relatable as ever.
Either women will continue to not see that men are different rather than inferior and both sexes will get more frustrated and further apart, with no obvious limit. Or women will begin to notice that men are not merely low-performing women, and how they operate is valuable.
You've articulated better what has been on my mind for quite sometime. I too have felt that women have wanted a man to be more traditionally "feminine", so myself and other men I know try and hopelessly meet that expectation that deep down we can never truly meet. Mostly because it doesn't feel entirely true to ourselves.
As you pointed out, I don't think women know what to do with this change either. Any woman I've tried to talk to this about in my life hasn't really been able to articulate what they'd want in a partner that wasn't traditional masculine or feminine gender roles in a hetero relationship.
I don't believe a heterosexual relationship should be different to a homosexual one.
If I'm with a man (and I am…), I don't have different expectations than I would if he were a lesbian/bisexual woman.
Loyalty, honesty, dignity, respect, support through all of life’s stages. A fair share of household labour. If we have kids, they're yours as much as mine; your time and energy should be as devoted to them as mine is. If you cannot or will not devote that time and energy, the child should remain theoretical.
Worrying about masculinity or femininity is just… so very exhausting and ultimately pointless because no-one even agrees what those words mean or who they should be applied to or when they should be applied.
Be a good partner and human, regardless of whether you like to wear dresses or not.
Great read. Time well spent. I’ll be thinking about this one for a while
love this for soooooo many reasons, thank you for unpacking this complicated topic so beautifully!
thank you for reading and for your kind comment!
That was a great read, thank you for your time and including your recording !
As women we have spent innumerable hours figuring out what it is a man wants from us, which is different from what the last wanted(needed) and even more different still from what the next one wants. Let us challenge men to figure out it the way we always have. Meet a person, they’re going to need things unique to them, figure out what those things are. When all else fails, ask.
Do you think men have never bothered to figure out what women want?
tell us what we want, if you’ve already “bothered” to know
Fundamentally, what a woman wants is to be chosen by a man she finds useful.
When we were dragging a Sabre-toothed tiger back to camp every night, we both knew what you found useful. It’s got more complicated every year since then.
every woman you’ve ever been in a “relationship” has told you exactly what she wants. women are very open about what we want. it’s already hard enough to find a “good man” we aren’t leaving much to chance. but males think they know better always.
Women are famously not open or honest about what they want.
Women are - famously! - not at all straightforward about explaining what they want, and that situation has nothing to do with patriarchy.
Of course all humans want to experience love from others, but quite understandably that’s not enough: it has to be a “good man”, as you say. My comment boiled down what a woman means by “good man”.
no that is not what women want fundamentally that is what the patriarchy has indoctrinated women into believing. all humans fundamentally want to experience love from others, the beauty of the earth and community, of a shared cause and a higher purpose.
Women seem fascinatingly easy to manipulate.
seems like you also are indoctrinated. i hope you have a good life with your hand. may wanna work on the left too so you don’t get too tired. boy bye! 👋